In addition to be horrifically expensive, the lack of communication between their staff members and the client is dumbfounding. Sidebar: why is it consumers pay premium prices for students to experiment and learn on our animals?
Zuki, The White Dog, had had diarrhea and was vomiting intermittently. I took her to the local vet, who eventually recommended that I take her to a vet's office which had more advanced imaging equipment.
I immediately called my other vet, who was unable to take Zuk till the following week (in retrospect, I should have said 'TODAY!' They always accommodate emergencies).
Zuks went into distress that night. Crying, whimpering, barking. I rushed her to Cornell.
The intake vet recommended taking an X-ray. This indicated wither a foreign body or 'something worse.'
Still in shock from Kuro's death, I asked for a couple of minutes to pull myself together. As I walked down the hall back into the exam room, I told the young vet: 'I don't believe in life at all costs.'
And, as Zuki is officially a rescue dog, anything the was done to her had to be weighed against the good and needs of the other dogs we have in rescue.
I told the intake doc that -- clearly informing him that Zuki is part of Akita Rescue, is a foster, and is not my dog. I clearly stated that we have dozens of other dogs that we need to consider, and that all decisions had to be made in light of the good of all of them, not just for the good of the individual. I told him we're a small group, and the costs incurred in Zuki's treatments were coming out of my pocket.
After reflection, I opted for exploratory surgery. Doc quoted a range of $2400 for FB, to $3500 'if it's something more involved.' I told the vet: 'if it's a foreign body, proceed. If it's anything more involved let her go.'
"We'll call you for your permission.'
'I'm giving you my permission now. In another 2 or 3 hours, I'll be fried. I'll have been up for 24 hours by then. So, I am giving you my permission NOW.'
I went to see Zuki, who was now in the ICU area, hugged and kissed her, and left. The poor dog was in great distress. Again, I repeated: You have my permission. Don't call me. If it's anything more than a foreign body, let her go.
At 4:30 or so, the phone rings. It's the vet.
"it's more serious than a foreign body. It's intussusception. We can save her, but there's a risk of recurrence. We'll do what we can to limit that, but there is always a chance of recurrence.'
I'm thinking 'why are you calling me?' yet at the same time am drawn into the drama and emotion of the moment. I keep asking questions. The young vet says 'the surgeon is waiting, the dog is on the table. We've got to know what you want us to do. You have to tell us NOW.'
'Would you do this to your dog?'
'Yes, I probably would.'
'OK, then.'
'The surgeon will call you when she's done.'
Around 7 a.m., the phone rings again. It's Dr. Fitzpatrick.
Zuki has made it through surgery, and seems fine. Dr. Courtney Fitzpatrick says 'typically there's a 30% recurrence rate for this condition. I see it higher than that, though. 40 or 50 percent.' She tells me that she's done what she can to prevent this, by tacking the intestines to each other in several places.
'But this has risks, too. And you can't do it in too many places as the intestines need to move. There's also the possibility of infection.'
I'm exhausted and now in shock. I'd not heard that incredible percentage prior to her call. In short, I'm stunned. What (WHAT!?) would prompt a vet to do surgery on a condition with such a high probability of recurrence? On a rescue dog?
The 4th year student who is assigned to Zuki's case calls around 9 a.m. She, by way of breaking the ice, asks how I am.
'Not good.' And I told her why -- I'd not heard the probability of the dog having another episode, I'd told the intake doc that he needn't call me, I felt as if I hadn't received the appropriate information to make an informed decision. I wasn't yelling; I was, however, very intense and direct.
She asked if I'd like to speak with the chief of surgery, Jay Harvey.
I said yes.
Dr. Harvey called shortly thereafter, around 9 a.m. His first two sentences were: "I have a very upset student here. What the hell did you say to her?"
I was shocked. He stated 'you yelled at her and got her very upset.' No, I did not yell. I was clear, direct, and intense.He didn't believe me. 'You shouldn't yell at someone for something that is not their responsibility.'
In an effort to get the conversation back to a better footing, I began to discuss what happened the previous night. (I'm also wondering, 'would he have said that to me if I were a man?')
"The surgeon said there's a greater than 30 percent probability that this will recur. She told me that she considers it to be 40 to 50 percent probability of recurrence. Why wasn't I given that information BEFORE I made any decisions? Why didn't the intake doctor listen to my first statement that I was giving him my permission when I was actually in the hospital?"
Harvey responds: "The probability is not that high! It's 10 or 15 percent chance." (Who am I supposed to believe? The surgeon who has actually has her hands in the animals or an administrator?)
"The surgery is already done. What do you want us to do? Euthanize Zuki? I'll go euthanize her right now if you want!"
"That's not the point. The point is that I was not given information that was crucial to the decision making process."
"But the surgery has already been done! We can euthanize the dog. We can do that right now!"
He informed me he works with King Charles Cavalier Spaniel rescue, and relayed a story about a puppy with a cardiovascular problem. His group opted to have the surgery done, however the puppy died after the procedure was completed. His group payed for the treatment.
I asked: Does Cornell provide discounts or support for rescue groups?
Harvey answered: They didn't for us.
I told him that our group is small and doesn't have deep pockets, that we're stretched thin, and that the expenses incurred with Zuki will come out of my pocket. "You should have told the vet that!"
"I did."
He asked "Do you want a refund?"
"Yes, I would. And I also think that the staff at Cornell needs to communicate better."
"Would you like to speak with my boss? He's the director of the Vet School."
"Yes, please, I would."
"One of two people will call you. Either Dr. Horne or Dr. Hornbuckle."
I waited a day.....
Bill Horne calls and leaves a message. We finally speak on Monday. I explain what has
happened. I’d visited Zuki at the hospital over the weekend, and she seemed to be doing fine. The young vet student who was assigned to her case told me on Sunday that ‘Zuki didn’t need to be in the ICU any longer, but we’re keeping her there because everyone likes her.’ I said nothing, although the thought ‘I’m paying for ICU when she doesn’t need to be there?’ I mention this, to him, too, as well as the fact that Zuki’s stool was checked for parasites, and she was given panacure, when two days prior to the emergency surgery, she’d had her stool checked for parasites, and had been given panacure.
Bill seems like a reasonable guy. He says he’ll look into the charges. He calls back the next day, and leaves a message. “I’ve capped your bill at $3500."
I immediately respond with a message of my own. “I’m confused! Why am I capped at $3500 when Doctor Harvey offered a refund? And the intake vet had indicated that the foreign body charge was $2400, while anything more complex would be $3500. Where’s the refund Jay Horne offered?”
His return message: “Now I’m confused. I thought you'd be happy! I capped your bill at we charge for a foreign body.”
My reply voice mail repeated my comments. And added a bit about how their customer service is abysmal.
Horne, to his credit, calls back. Another voic email: I asked Jay Horne about the refund, and he said ‘I don’t know where she got that idea.”
“I got that idea from HIM” is my return message.
His solution: to arrange a meeting between me and the key players at Cornell. Is that good customer service? Putting a paying client in with people who will attempt to be covering their rear ends? Harvey is already, in essence, calling me a liar. And Horne must think I am one, too, since he hasn’t refunded me.
I’m disappointed. As a rescuer. As a pet owner. As a consumer. And as an alum. I’m taking the Big Red out of my will. I think that portion of my estate is better off in the hands of animal rescue groups.
I took in my first rescue 20 years ago, a puppy who'd been brutalized by her owner. She needed multiple surgeries & extensive treatment to recover. Thanks to my wonderful "family vet" and the compassion of a well-known orthopedic surgeon, costs to our rescue group were minimal. Many, many rescue dogs later, I have yet to confront an experience like Nancy's.
ReplyDeleteIt's shocking that these "professonals," who have allegedly dedicated their careers to the welfare of animals, could be so callous about a young dog's acute illness, so rude to a member of the Cornell community, so arrogant. And what sort of example are they setting for their students? Is this typical of the richly endowed Ivy League institutions? Shame on the Cornell School of Veterinary Medicine.
This sounds like an absolute horror, but unfortunately, I saw things like this happen all too often when I worked in veterinary medicine. Compassion has been replaced with profit margins, which is one of the reasons many people can no longer afford to own a pet. A tragedy for both humans and companion animals everywhere.
ReplyDeleteI hope that Cornell does the right thing by Nancy, which, in my opinion includes both financial restitution and a heartfelt apology. I have rarely witnessed such an inexcusable lack of communication skills from a reputable institution.
It would be a good idea for Cornell to refund or further reduce the charges as an indication of good will toward the dog rescue community. The reputation of the Veterinary School and Hospital will be negatively affected if this is not done.
ReplyDeleteI can't believe that Cornell did that to one of its alumni! I will definitely
ReplyDeletetell all my animal friends to boycott the Vet School if they don't refund
your money, LIKE THEY SAID THEY WOULD! Keep us posted! We will take
action!
Seems like they were given a clear directive by you on the level of treatment being dependent on their exploratory findings.
ReplyDelete'....proceed. If it's anything more involved let her go. They failed.
This is a terrible experience for anyone, and they obviously don't hold their alumni in high regard. Like others who have commented, I will boycott (and will tell others to do so as well) if they do not do the right thing and offer a full refund and a sincere apology. Please keep us posted on the outcome.
ReplyDeleteSeems a lot like casket sales to me..... when you're distraught, who's gonna bury Mama in a cheap box, eh? For Cornell, it's a win-win situation. They're elite (or so they/we think), their students get to 'practice' on our animals in highly sought after situations & heck, if a customer is willing to pay $2500 for a procedure, what's another few hundred added on? As the pet parent, you're vulnerable. He said/she said/they said/you said... bottom line is you were the distraught one so the ASSUMPTION is going to be that YOU were the one misunderstanding the situation. Who would DARE to question Cornell, right? Where would Cornell be if people were unwilling to bring them animals requiring special procedures? Little tough to teach about them if people don't bring the animals in. Seems to me it should be more of a mutual benefit situation from their perspective.
ReplyDeleteOH.. and PS & by the way.... 'I've got a very upset student here! What the HELL did you say to her?" Again, dripping w/ the elitist attitude of who will question Cornell so we can say/do as we please. PLUS: dealing with pet owners is something each student should EXPECT to have to contend with! DUH! Anxious, distraught, angry... all the hoops we get to jump through no matter what profession we choose. PEOPLE have animals. Learn to deal with people as well.
ReplyDeleteI'd take them up on their offer to meet with you. If it takes an hour and the bill is dropped or reduced to the original $2500 cap, that's an excellent hourly wage. Don't forget to wear a wire. ;-)
ReplyDeleteHaving had almost daily updates on this whole sage, I think Nancy, you have failed to share in your blog the time frame that we are talking about. If people were aware of the timeframe, all the comments and support I see would be written in bold! Maybe some are aware, but for those who are not, it has been weeks, going on monthS, that this has been dragged out; COMPLETELY unprofessional on top of all the other adjectives that have been shared.
ReplyDeleteIt is just so sad that, what I am sure the mission of Cornel vet school started with has been lost; the essence of partnering, not only with local families and their pets, but also with not-for-profit rescue organizations. Wouldn’t you think they would have the same mission – save animals. And sometimes saving an animal means euthanasia when the quality of life is compromised from a condition. That being said, I was horrified how the option of euthanizing was thrown in your face, repeatedly, after the surgery was completed. It was like horrible bad parenting-threats. Again – so unprofessional.
Please keep us posted!
Unfortunately, vet school clinic/hospitals and vet emergency centers have us all over a barrel. We come to them as a last resort for care of seriously ill pets. It is an emotional issue for us and just another dog, cat, etc. for them. Along with better nutrition training in vet schools they might increase the course load in empathy and clear communication with owners. The only mistake you made was holding them accountable for their words and practices.
ReplyDeleteThe difference between the care and customer service you get in animal health providers and human health providers continues to appall me. This kind of treatment would never be tolerated at any hospital and there would numerous avenues of recourse available if something as awful as this were to happen. Cornell has a reputation for being particularly bad about their disdain for the wishes and especially the resources of their animals' owners. They know that once you've come to them you've probably exhausted every other resource and you're desperate and emotional and they prey on that every bit as savagely as an ambulance chasing lawyer. The only way to fight this is by spreading the word of what's happening and speaking with our dollars as pet owners. There are other animal hospitals out there, they may not have Cornell's reputation or offer the same services, but I, for one, will not give another cent to their practice. I am so sorry for your experience. I hope you get some kind of satisfactory conclusion. Please keep us posted.
ReplyDeleteI have been a resident of Ithaca since the Third Grade. I have always been taught to value the education and skills that Cornell brought to the Ithaca City School District System – learned to appreciate the instructors “given” “to teach” in the district for the day, written information completely given to my Zoology professor and a feeling – an unquantifiable feeling of security, knowing that the world’s best school of Zoology and all of its facets was in my back yard. I cannot doubt that Cornell scientifically processes the best Zoological system and education problem in the world, but I question, nay, I wonder why Cornell’s Vets and students are not taught any practical, or any people skills. I have witnessed this myself.
ReplyDeleteI wish everyone could halve known my beloved Hayley (Bird). The gentlest cat she was, steadily dying, she weighed in at about 5 pounds, despite her size and length. I received the BEST POSSIBLE CARE ever, given by two Cornell Graduates. These veterinarians were the most compassionate medical professionals that I have ever met (in fact they currently treat my other cat), and they graduated from Cornell. I talked to them today and I vowed to protect their identity. Hayley needed a procedure that would cost almost $280, if I wanted to keep her alive (pain-free) for another week, this procedure would be done at another vet’s office. However, If I wanted the scan faster, a faster scan, which could of added days to Hayley’s life, would be $926-1134.50 dollars more if I had it done “instantly” (within 5 hours) at Cornell. Upon consulting with my vets, this immediate scan was not worth it. My cat of almost 20 years was dying, and every time she was trying to speak (“meow”) she would choke on herself. I had a dying cat in my arms, and with my parents out of town, I could not afford the scan procedure for several days. I know now I was not to blame.
Days later, my parents flew up to Ithaca to give Hayley her peace, to set her free in Heaven. As the WONDERFUL vet gave her the first injection to sedate Hayley and put her in a “Wakeful Coma”, I cried many tears … as I was losing a family member. An INTERN from the CORNELL UNIVERSITY VETERNIARY SCHOOL asked me and my mother when we would be done and out of the exam room – the room where my Hayley was dying. My mother asked the female student to “understand” compassion, and behind tears I choked, “You may view everything under the microscope, But I want you to see this being [Hayley] dying, and tell me, that after twenty years, you could just ‘chuck her in the ground’.”. (Because of our involvement, the office no longer receives interns in person – but they (the office) reviews their work – if work is submitted) She left after that, but my mother and I were repulsed.
ReplyDeleteThe bottom line is that I have seen GREAT vets come out of Cornell, such as the ones we actively see now. Another point to the bottom, is that I hear many negative things from those in the medical and veterinary professional field who still work for Cornell. I have been trained, even painfully at times to be non-biased. If Dr. Nancy Almann (A MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL, who instructs MEDICAL classes/persons into our future, BECOMING MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS) says a service is rendered, under tenderable terms, Dr. A. would drop everything – no matter what , to pay it. That is the person she is, that is the person she expects to deal with.
I talked on AOL instant messenger to a young vet recently (this conversation took place about a year ago). Kim Din Fuin Lee On (I feel comfortable using his name, since I did not provide his last name), was excited to heard that I lived in Ithaca. He asked me if it was true that I lived close to a university that provides access for the finest musicians [IC] and he asked me, ver batium, if it was true, [exact quote “[sic] thatgt you have world class to treat the animal but the animal vet school no now has education benefits on how to treat the owner of animanl because al animal is owned by human foreces”].
Please consider, anticipated by the world round, a new focus on the animal “owner” and sticking, on staying with what was promised. You can never know who has what connection to what Zoo and to what Government! Some people like the “human touch”, while others, “need the human touch”.
My best, for your improvemtent, Ryan Gilroy / 607.351.5871
Days later, my parents flew up to Ithaca to give Hayley her peace, to set her free in Heaven. As the WONDERFUL vet gave her the first injection to sedate Hayley and put her in a “Wakeful Coma”, I cried many tears … as I was losing a family member. An INTERN from the CORNELL UNIVERSITY VETERNIARY SCHOOL asked me and my mother when we would be done and out of the exam room – the room where my Hayley was dying. My mother asked the female student to “understand” compassion, and behind tears I choked, “You may view everything under the microscope, But I want you to see this being [Hayley] dying, and tell me, that after twenty years, you could just ‘chuck her in the ground’.”. (Because of our involvement, the office no longer receives interns in person – but they (the office) reviews their work – if work is submitted) She left after that, but my mother and I were repulsed.
ReplyDeleteThe bottom line is that I have seen GREAT vets come out of Cornell, such as the ones we actively see now. Another point to the bottom, is that I hear many negative things from those in the medical and veterinary professional field who still work for Cornell. I have been trained, even painfully at times to be non-biased. If Dr. Nancy Almann (A MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL, who instructs MEDICAL classes/persons into our future, BECOMING MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS) says a service is rendered, under tenderable terms, Dr. A. would drop everything – no matter what , to pay it. That is the person she is, that is the person she expects to deal with.
I talked on AOL instant messenger to a young vet recently (this conversation took place about a year ago). Kim Din Fuin Lee On (I feel comfortable using his name, since I did not provide his last name), was excited to heard that I lived in Ithaca. He asked me if it was true that I lived close to a university that provides access for the finest musicians [IC] and he asked me, ver batium, if it was true, [exact quote “[sic] thatgt you have world class to treat the animal but the animal vet school no now has education benefits on how to treat the owner of animanl because al animal is owned by human foreces”].
Please consider, anticipated by the world round, a new focus on the animal “owner” and sticking, on staying with what was promised. You can never know who has what connection to what Zoo and to what Government! Some people like the “human touch”, while others, “need the human touch”.
My best, for your improvemtent, Ryan Gilroy / 607.351.5871
Clear communication and clear expectations are an imperative in any healthcare profession. It is especially important that those who have chosen to work in the field of animal medicine take responsibility not only for the care of the animals with whom they are charged but also with the expectations and wishes of the owners/caretakers of those animals. At no time can animal medical care be removed from the triad of animal, owner/caretaker and healthcare provider. This triad only functions successfully when communication and expectations are clear. I have no doubt that had Cornell been forthcoming with both the expense of this surgery and subsequent hospitalization, and with the significantly high probability of a reoccurrence of this condition, that this particular owner/caretaker would have felt empowered in her decision making role rather than blind-sided, after the fact. The issue at hand here is not the quality of the treatment received by the animal while in Cornell's care, but Cornell's failure to fully empower this animal owner/caretaker with full disclosure regarding expense and prognosis. I hope the matter will be recognized and resolved by Cornell in a reasonable manner.
ReplyDeleteWOW, I cannot believe this. I personally have taken all my animals to cornell. I started with my ferrets, all of them ended up going there for adrenal gland disease, and for lymphoma. We had nothing but great experiances with them, but this was also the exotics part of the hospital. We have taken our pups and cats there also. The only problem I have had were a couple of students who lacked bedside manner, and my dog was completly terrified. I personally believe if you are in the medical field you need to be able to communicate, be sympathetic, good bedside manner, and be an advocate for the patient and owner. Also if someone is wanting to be a vet,if they seem awkward around an animal or the pet is terrified of them, you know something isn't right. Anyways so my dog Ella has gone there for some time now, going on almost 5 years.So with ella they did some bloodwork on her and noticed her liver enzymes were extremly high, they then continued to do more research and came to a conclusion that she has a liver enzyme deficiency, which has stunted her growth and causing her levels to be high. They said there is nothing they can do for now except monitor her over time. four years later I took her back for a routine bloodwork to check on her levels, they decided to approach me and say they belived that the diagnosis she had had for 4 years was wrong, and they believe she might have hepatitus. They want to do a live biopsy to be sure, lets see 5,000 to tell me if she has it or not...im a college student I don't have that kind of money, so I had to pass on it. Later I went home and did research and found out if she did in fact have hepatitus all the s/s that come with it she didn't exibit, it is highly contagous, my other dog and my mom's dog don't have it so that dosen't make sense. Also I noticed everytime she had had blood work done it was not to far from when she was put under anesthia. Anesthia has a tendency to raise your liver enzyme levels also. So I am conviniced my dog does not have hepatitus, and most likely her levels were elevated because of the anesthia, I have gotten blood work done when she haden't been on anesthia for a while and they were dramatically lower. You would think with all the students on board looking at these files they might have questioned that....who knows...
ReplyDeletemost distressing and definitely pause for consideration about future use of this institution. I question what else could have been done before rushing under the knife. Your poor dog is the one who suffers if this was overzealous as recouperation from surgery should always be the last resort. AND I do think places become forgetful of customer service and communication which as a private business owner is paramount!
ReplyDeleteNo matter what the situation, an ethical vet hospital should always put everything in writing -- any comments, any possible further surgery, whatever, should all be in writing including prices and proceedures. The speciality hospitals I work with for vet care for our rescues would always work WITH US not against us like this. I am sorry you had to go thru this but I am sincerely hoping they will own up to their mistakes and take care of you -- the whole bill should be forgiven if you ask me!! I'm glad I'm in NJ where I've not had anything like this happen -- Cornell should be ashamed of themselves!!
ReplyDeleteMy dear old family vet is a Cornell alum and he himself is fond of saying "you can always tell a Cornell man, but you can't tell him much." That pretty much describes this situation, too much arrogance, not enough compassion and definitely inadequate communication. Or is it simply that they didn't bother listening to the mere mortal paying the bill.
ReplyDeleteBeing an alumna of the vet school, as well as a client coming in on emergency several times with cats and dogs, I have seen the good, the bad and the ugly.
ReplyDeleteThe good: excellent teachers who really care, excellent clinicians as well as residents, interns and students on emergency, CPS (no longer existent) and medical services.
The bad: poor teachers, clinicians more interested in running more tests rather than if the tests are truly necessary and giving the option to clients to do them or not, emergency service residents with absolutely no empathy and nor bedside manner.
The ugly: this situation with Dr. Nancy, who is a true pet-lover, and also an honest and honorable person who would not make things up. In reality, the saying "ask 10 doctors, get 10 different answers" holds true for vet medicine as well as human medicine. As one previous commenter already pointed out, written records of what was quoted by whom and when should be maintained, and the prognosis, always important but especially so in rescue/shelter cases where financial concerns are key, needs to be solid and consistent, not changeable depending upon who is giving it or when it is given.
This is the first I have heard of this from Dr. Nancy, and I am disheartened to learn that this happened to her for it should never have happened in the first place.
But it did happen; now what? Cornell should at the very least fall back on the FB cap and offer an apology. Dr Horn's offer to meet is a good one, if Nancy can handle that emotionally; I totally understand if that is hard to do after how she was treated. If not a physical meeting, a conference call, where an apology is offered and the situation rectified is an absolute necessity.
Cornell vet school is in a terrible bind financially, as is the rest of the university, and they cannot afford to lose the good will they enjoy with the majority of the community, especially with CU graduates.
It's a sad day when doctors, educators and administrators of the health care profession reach such emotional strain. I'm sure that they feel that their work is about the animals and not about the owners, but it's not quite that simple. It sounds very much like all the best intentions turned into miscommunication, hurt feelings, and lashing out. I would hope that situations such as this are few and far between, but that doesn't exactly make it acceptable. It seems to me that rather than a 'meeting' a mediated gathering would suit the situation better. An impartial group of two or three peers may make this sticky(and somewhat insulting) situation pan out a little more smoothly for both parties. It's horrible timing for you to have to deal with this issue, yet I think that to follow this through is the right thing, you are the type of pet owner that cares enough to go the extra mile. You are the type of client that makes Cornell what it is. Administration there should be begging for your approval as a pet owner, not harassing you. People do make mistakes, and then they should make amends!
ReplyDeleteits a shame that in this day and age that all the commubications weren't or maybe they were.We as Gods caregivers to animals don't think to our legal ramifications if we're overcome with emotions that there is a school receiving federal money we pay via taxes still trying to rob us to further their pockets.We pay taxes,students pay to learn and an administrator vacations on a cruise ship 1st class.There's gotta be a better way.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion Dr Nancy if emotionally able, should attend the meeting, as it will throw the "liars" off track. They probably feel she is being overdramatic with all that had happened and will not take it any further. There is truly no reason or excuse to treat a sick animal and their owner in this way! To thoroughly disrespect a wonderfully balanced and educated person should not be tolerated!
ReplyDeleteAs a Cornell alum and animal rescuer, I am disappointed, if not appalled, at the lack of communication between Cornell staff. Knowing Dr. Nancy as well as I do, I also know that what she relays here is not an exaggeration.
ReplyDeleteParticularly distressing is the interaction with Jay Harvey. What was he thinking? I suspect, when asked, he'll deny having said any of this.
Cornell needs to do what Harvey said. Refund the cost of this operation. The rescue dog will require life long care -- and it's due to Cornell's error.
What happened to Zuki? Did she make it or not????
ReplyDeleteWow, I am sorry that you had to go through all of that! It sounds like very poor communication on their part. “IF YOU DON’T GET THE CORRECT INFORMATION PRIOR TO THE TREATMENT, HOW CAN YOU MAKE THE PROPER INFORMED DECSION?” It sounds like total miscommunication between the team and what the relayed to you. I hope Harvey will step up and admit that he said, “They will refund the cost.” But, I doubt he will! Best of luck!
ReplyDeleteIts all about clear concise communication. you need to talk to the higher ups
ReplyDeleteNancy, I'm sorry to hear about this and do think that it's your priority to get the right information. Such a fragile situation should not be handled so shamelessly to say the least. I'll ask St. Francis of Assisi to pray for you and your dogs. God's compassion and peace on you as you seek to bless his creation.
ReplyDeleteWe've known Dr. Nancy from her days as a high ranking manager of a Fortune 5 company. Her priorities: clear communication and customer service. The vet school personnel with whom she interacted failed in both these areas.
ReplyDeleteIt's also distressing to hear that an Ivy League institution -- allegedly one of the best in the world -- would provide such poor service. Is this what we can expect from vet school graduates?
Refund, Cornell. You offered, now live up to that offer.
I know people who have taken horses and received much the same treatment. I'm not suprised Cornell is in CYA mode. The "gentle- manly" thing to do is admit the mistake,refund the money, and help Zuki and her owner for the rest of her life for free! This all seems symptomatic of our cultural problem accepting death as part of the cycle of life. Nancy made a tough decision based on her knowledge of the situation and the intake student should have been trained to listen and respond to the needs of clients before he was put in a position to cause harm. Give'em hell Nancy--with enough sugar coating so they can swallow their pride and do the right thing.
ReplyDeleteThis seems apt: you can always tell a Cornell man, but you can't tell him much." Dr. Nancy is a Cornell woman, so I assume this is a gender specific statement!
ReplyDeleteCornell failed on virtually every account. The first doc failed to tell the surgeon what the client said, the surgeon failed to tell the first doc and the client about the probability of recurrence.
How could the client make an informed decision?
The fact the administrator was rude and offensive to the client is beyond the pale. Harvey threatened the dog! Not once, but twice! His comment about the probability of recurrence not being 'that high' indicates that the surgeon -- a resident -- did not have her facts straight. If she didn't know this, did she know enough to be operating?
Or is the administrator wrong? As said, who to believe? The surgeon or the administrator?
I'd opt to believe the surgeon, who actually works on the animals, although she failed to impart crucial information to the client. After all, Harvey offered a refund the claims he didn't.
Who do you believe in a case like this? So much for a world class & reputable vet school.
This is SO OUTRAGEOUS!!!! I will certainly make sure that I avoid Cornell if I happen to be in the area & in need of ANYTHING from them, veterinary or otherwise. I am forwarding this on to my cousin who is a Vet & asking him to forward it to other Vets he is in contact w/ to be aware AND to counsel their clients about the position CORNELL specifically is taking/did take & to be aware about what other University Vet Schools are doing. In this case, pre-advice from your personal vet will give you a heads up about what may or may not happen at someplace like Cornell.
ReplyDeleteMy suggestion: contact the NYS Office of the Professions. Dr. Harvey threatened the dog. He needs to be censured.
ReplyDeleteAs for the utter lack of communication between every person on Cornell's staff, only one word will suffice: dumbfounding. Ditto for the way Dr. Harvey spoke to a member of the community.
Under no circumstances should a health care professional of *any* species speak to a paying client in such a manner.
Apologize, Dr. Harvey.
Refund Dr. Nancy, Cornell.
What a sad state of affairs it is when a good person, with a deep love of animals, is treated as a pariah for considering the needs of many over the needs of herself. Cornell Vet School is heralded as a world class institution, but on what is this based? The point is not to have state of the art equipment or to foster learning experiences for prospective vets. Ultimately the goal must be compassionate, well-coordinated service delivery. It has to be about the quality of care for the animals and compassionate partnering with their humans or it simply does not matter. The arrogance among and lack of communication between their providers prevents many people and their animals from taking advantage of what Cornell Vet School has to offer.
ReplyDeleteWhat a horrifying story. This is every pet owner's worst nightmare. Not to mention that it just reinforces every stereotype that Cornell and their administrators and doctors have - pompous, ineffective, etc. Absolutely disgusting.
ReplyDeleteNancy,
ReplyDeletemy heart goes out to you, this sounds like a nightmare. It is difficult to have to make life/death decisions in a rational way, and it sounds like you made an efffort to put a decision-making policy in place -- and it wasn't communicated properly. I had a similar experience, but my vet was understanding and realized that they really shouldn't charge me for "preserving life at all costs" since I wasn't aware of the chance of success, etc. I hope your meeting with the school goes well, and that they see this as an opportunity to make improvements in their customer service, and as a "teachable moment" for their students.
Regarding the "I've got a very upset student here! What the HELL did you say to her?" comment. That's a whole 'nother problem. OMG!!!
I had the distinct honor of being a student in not one semester but two of a class taught by Nancy. She is a consumate professional, expecting full effort and honesty from each and every student in her class as well as from herself. I attribute much of my success as a health care professional on her example. It really is too bad that the students at Cornell do not have the same example to follow, that of honesty, integrity and humanity. It is easy to become so large that the "big picture" obscures the very reason we do what we do and who we are there for. It seems that Cornell has crossed that line.. the "almighty dollar" has sullied the waters of compassion. Sure, they deal with animals, but with every animal there is a human. Nancy's ivolvement in Zuki's life goes even deeper than that... Zuki is a rescue dog... shouldn't a place like Cornell consider this an even higher calling than that of even the average pet owner??
ReplyDeleteThe bottom line is this... everyone, from the first contact in the door to the last "higher up" Nancy spoke with showed a complete lack of compassion, respect and humanity. They owe an apology and a refund to this wonderfull person who has dedicated her life to human kind as well as animals. What is going to happen to the vet program at an already financially struggling Cornell University if PEOPLE stopped taking their pets there for veterinary care? The ivory tower will crumble....
You are not the only person to be shocked at Cornell veterinary department for raping consumers with outrageous fee's. Why is this a privilege for STUDENT'S to train and learn on your pets? With mistakes made along the way? Paying top dollar for a vet in training who is still "wet behind the ears"!!?? It is rather disgusting. If you go anywhere else to a teaching college for example, dentistry, it is always cheaper because it is student's working on your teeth. Not so with Cornell veterinary. They are in fact MORE expensive then anywhere else in this region. DO NOT LEAVE THEM ANY MONEY FROM YOUR WILL. You are just a number, it is all about the mighty dollar, alumni regardless. This is just a business cut and dry. Although the public is what supports Cornell it really seems like it is a one way relationship. Seems they just take and take and take. Again, you are not alone, it has happened time and again with these OUTRAGEOUS fee's. Or surprise fee's after the work is done. Rescue groups / shelters will benefit more from your hard earned money Nancy and be humbly appreciative as well...
ReplyDeleteSpeaking from personal experience in fighting the Cornell about RedBud Woods, and other venues of humanitarian advocacy here, I have just one humble suggestion. I was informed by a reliable source that the Board of Trustees of Cornell are made up from among the wealthiest executives of American companies, with business ethics that many ordinary people would find strongly objectionable, board members who live in states far away, and whose "day jobs" are as the top dogs with big pharma, and big oil and other toxic chemical purveyors...so it seems to me that it is a trickle down effect, and the most broadreaching way to change attitude at Cornell is to slowly but surely replace all Cornell trustees with people we could "trust" with guiding this community university...and to my mind that means probably NOT some of whom i are on there now. Organize and find out who votes how on that board, identify those objectionable by their record and background with probable conflicts of interest, and then find others who can get become a Cornell Trustee...create broad support groups for him/her/them and tell Cornell that we the Ithaca Community mean business, too, but business with ethics that fully engaged with heart and soul. Not just finances. Cornell is an entity...made up of individuals. Change those individuals, get results.
ReplyDeleteNancy, it sounds like there was a miscommunication in this situation. When treatment costs considerable amounts of money it is important to be well informed about the possible outcomes. It appears Cornell didn’t give you all the information you needed to make an informed decision about going forward with the surgery. I’m not too familiar with how Cornell vet school works, however I would hope they would offer probono treatment for animals that are rescues. Considering it is a learning college it would make since that the cost should be cheaper for such animals.
ReplyDeleteI read this and sighed. Depressing! As noted in previous comments - so much for a world class institution.
ReplyDeleteAnd it's true - why, if students are learning on our animals, are we expected to pay super premium rates? Just because it's Cornell?
This is not the only horror story I've heard about the vet school. In fact, I only remember hearing one good story about their services, relative to the 18 or 20 unhappy sagas I've also heard.
Perhaps this is a wake up call for the vet school. Due to the economic downturn, the university as a whole is struggling. I assume this is same for the vet school. Improving service and lowering rates would increase volume, and therefore generate more revenues.
That's a basic marketing principle.
As for this individual case - yikes! Harvey needs to apologize. And the dog is now a special needs dog. The caretaker made it clear what her decision was early on, and Cornell is in error.
Refund and apologize!
How can anyone trust a Vet School that prescribes the worst, bottom-of-the-barrel, pet food (Hills) to bandage diseases that this very food may have caused. This is the same chemical company that funds research to the vet school. Smells very fishy, to me. I talked to a vet student the other day and he said that he is dismayed that there are no nutrition courses at the school. If there were they would see hoe Hills brand sucks, unless they use a similar diet "pyramid" as the FDA uses, lobbied by the very companies that promote the deepening of their own brands, and pockets.
ReplyDelete